Joint Session on FOIA

Speaker 1

0:01 I'm done.

0:05 With I'd like to call the meeting to order. Roll call from, let me see.

Speaker 2

0:12 Steve Strait, Jeremy Taylor.

Speaker 1

0:17 Alright. Roll call from Town Council. May know it's fine.

Speaker 3

0:22 One way, dear. Frances Westbrook here.

Speaker 1

0:26 Julie Harris here. Mary Kay was here. Rob Kay is here. Mary Carey Bradley here.

Speaker 3

0:42 Miss Bradley, for the record, I brought you a Valentine's gift. I'm sorry you're not here to get it.

Speaker 1

0:48 Well, thank you, Wayne.

0:57 K. Well, we have our, attorney, Kelly Kim, is going to lead us in a workshop in regard to FOIA and FOIA regulations. Thank you. Miss Bradley, can you hear me? Okay. Great.

1:19 So I'm actually gonna start with the Dillon pool, which I know, extra excitement for you all. But Charles mentioned that we don't talk about it a lot, but it does get mentioned a lot and I don't I don't wanna say like local government circles, but but it kinda does. You called it by a question. Was that a government? It's a long. It is. Yeah.

1:46 So the diligent rule is basically the rule that says that localities can't do anything until the state trusts the command. And most states are not the legal states. They're what's called home rule states. So sometimes when people move to Virginia from other places, maybe they've been local government attorneys, they don't understand this. And so there's constantly, well, that's not how we did it in Upstate New York, and it's not because you didn't have to listen to what the general assembly said.

2:21 So there's always a tension between local governments and state in terms of what's, you know, what authority local governments have to do certain things. And obviously, some things are completely abled by the state and local governments want to be a part of them.

2:37 It is really important though because if if the board or the council takes an action that is outside of that hasn't been granted, a power that hasn't been granted to them, then that action is is void, which can have some pretty big impacts depending on what that action was. There was a case not too long ago. It was Sinclair versus, Singular Wireless. They were building a tower in Albemarle, and this is back when saw towers were being built with some frequency and regularity, they were very unpopular if they were tied and they were very popular if you had a cell phone you needed to use.

3:17 The other hall board supervisors, basically was like, we're tired of looking at these, cell towers. They could be variances because the other hall had, the ordinance about we can't build on the slope of the mountain, a certain percentage of. So they said, okay, Planning Commission, we're gonna like, usually go all of these and grant them what it may as well. Unfortunately, think you're going to put a tower next to a law professor, and he did not want that, so he took it upon himself and was like, you can't give the Planning Commission that power in this situation because you don't, it hasn't been authorized by the state.

3:57 So they went all the way through the Virginia Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said, yes. You can't just give things to the Planning Commission that we have not told you we have or powers that we have dedicated to the Planning Commission. So, you know, it's just an example of how the state has to grant certain powers to localities. Otherwise, it isn't basically an illegal action that has to be completely voided. So and it does come up pretty regularly.

4:32 I don't know that it's come up here since I've been here, but, you know, it it is always it always be a consideration. And if there's always, you know, something that I've trialed to myself is, like, you can't do that. Sometimes it's.

Speaker 3

4:51 So so you make up questions about building a little Is it less complaints that we can't do?

Speaker 1

4:59 There's always some things you cannot do, but in the state code, usually, 15.2 is, you know, all the things you can do or most of the things that you can do.

5:10 But, so if it's not in there, I mean, you all have control over zoning. You know, one of the topics in the general assembly right now is how much, you know, there's this tension. You know, we saw the cell towers, middle solar farms, now it's data centers, and you know, then built taking away localities ability to basically say no to a solar farm, like, we need that. So there's a constant, like, push by the state to take away. But for the most part, like, you all can, you know, have to you can tell how you see that.

5:44 So

Speaker 4

5:45 There was a bill in general something that got tabled, but it would have granted my right. Any nonprofit or church can build up to a great story of something going on their property without telling any need not tell their neighbors. They need not inform. They they do come to me, and I have no choice to give them a permit. What was the logic behind that?

Speaker 1

6:14 Pardon? What was the logic behind that? Affordable housing. Uh-huh.

Speaker 4

6:19 Unfortunately, that was one of the ones I was watching, which happened in nowhere. To your apartment in Delaware Mhmm. If that had passed, then, you

Speaker 3

6:29 know,

Speaker 4

6:29 we'd have been stuck with an apartment building here over there. That Oh. That fortunately, they buy it.

Speaker 1

6:39 I think the bill is still alive though that you can shoot a deer and go eating the plants. I think that one's still alive. Even if it's not deer season. So if, like, they're eating, I it doesn't seem And even if you Oh my god. You know that? Well, I don't want to be a nuisance. Let's say, I I am not your personal choice. I'm not telling you to shoot anything. Wanna know more. Let's see if it passes minimal. And then we'll talk. Because I think there are a lot of people.

7:10 Yeah. Which has nothing to do with this. It's angry people.

7:19 Okay. So Oregon is the Freedom of Information Act. Hopefully, everybody knows that. And the idea being that we have this of the of the country and the state and the municipality wants government to be as open and as transparent as possible, which basically comes down in two things. It's meetings need to be open to the public, and records need to be open to the public to the extent that it doesn't compromise, you know, economic development or contracts or people's, personal files and things like that.

7:53 So those are that's really what we're discovering, these meetings and, documents.

7:59 So, obviously, this is a meeting. It's not I mean, there's black people from the public, but you've advertised it. People can come if they would like to. Generally, a meeting is is whenever you have a quorum. Usually, it's three people depending on the size of your your body and they're gathered. It has to be, you know, you have to post notice. It's usually the town hall or the post office or the courthouse.

8:35 And you generally do post, at least an agenda. Charles does a a nice job with y'all's agenda. It's thorough about being, overly cumbersome. It, you know, it tells people they wanted to come and talk on, or listen about one of these things they can all emerge in this time. So

Speaker 3

8:57 if two people meet on Town Council, is that still considered a meeting?

Speaker 1

9:04 It depends. Two people can two people is not considered a forum for you all. However, if you were a two person committee, then that is a meeting. It's an official committee. But if just two of you get together for coffee and talk about town business, that doesn't meet the pressure. But a three person meeting? Right. Or Then we would have to then Right. But if you were the, you know, the July 4 committee, like, then you'd have to notice that meeting.

9:31 Suppose that

Speaker 3

9:32 we have a party.

Speaker 1

9:33 We got I notified the party that we have a party. Not if it's a social party and you're not discussing town business. And, hopefully, if you're having a party and you can buy a lot of your council members, you're not like, it's disappointing. You're not discussing town business. So yeah.

Speaker 2

9:48 I'm telling so it it would make sense never to create a three person committee. You're setting yourself up to have two people talking outside of your meeting. Well, any committee needs to be noticed. It doesn't matter if it's one person, two people. What what I'm saying is if you set a three person committee, then a quorum is two. Right. So we should always do four person committees at least. So two people can talk about business. Yes.

Speaker 1

10:18 I feel like that was a math question hidden in there. Yes, we represent a locality. It's a county, and they have three board members on the Board of Supervisors, which sets that up. So they can't talk to each other even to try to like coalition build for a vote. Right. Like, hey, you know, we've got this horrible apartment thing pending. Let's, you know, yeah. And it does make it really difficult, yeah, to just have any kind of conversation. Right.

Speaker 4

10:50 The electoral board, we were completely strapped. Is a 133 jurisdictions in Virginia. That's three men, three person committee. So we're under that same restriction. Yeah. Every gas station, every.

Speaker 3

11:06 Yeah. So the big industry, we have a full question in the. I'm

Speaker 1

11:14 not sure that's correct. If if it's a forum, then it's the forum thing that comes into play also. So committee is only two people. We used to do a while back so that we can get together and talk, but that doesn't count because if it's only a two member committee, then

Speaker 4

11:34 But I think it has it's not a it's not a Not horrifying. Trip's not a force. The majority. No. It's the majority of the of the committee. It

Speaker 1

11:42 is the committee. Isn't that correct? So therefore Wayne,

Speaker 2

11:44 you're right. It's in form. So, the

Speaker 1

11:47 best course of action is if they're having a committee meeting, a matter of two, you know, of like broad stroke, advertiser meeting. You know, people can come, like, so if you have a whole digital activity, advertise it. It's not a concern if they're not discussing town business. So, all of, you know, all of town council could, you know, go next door and get a glass of wine as long as you're not discussing town business. Does it look great or depending on what town you're in, can people raise an eyebrow?

12:21 Yes. But, that's sort of the threshold. And then technically, do need a form for it to be a meeting, but that's also, you you all only have two people here. I'm not sure how big your planning position is, but I know it's not just two of you. Right. So you all don't have a form right now, which means you all should have noticed the meeting because you were all invited, but you all can't take any action. So because it's just a two. So after

Speaker 4

12:54 the earlier question, two out of four is not a quorum. Right. It has to be a simple majority. It has to be a simple majority. Unless your bylaws are different.

Speaker 1

13:04 Some some bylaws are on these, so you do have to double check. But if it was meant to be a meeting of the four person committee, it still needs to be noticed. If only two show up, that is speech you can't. But

Speaker 4

13:17 it's when the when the two show up at the coffee shop, start talking. Yeah. That's a meeting. Right. Three out of the four show up that it is a meeting. Right. Yeah. If you're talking, it's just yeah.

Speaker 3

13:31 Don't want to talk about it. Yeah. Talk about it. It just doesn't mean right. Okay. And

Speaker 1

13:38 I have There are times when I've had boards go to other meetings, like, if you all wanted to go to the Lancaster County Board of Supervisory meeting together because there was something you all felt like you needed to come go represent the town. I've had people, like, literally sit all around their room, they just didn't want the look of it.

14:04 So safest practice is always post tremendous. But if there's any questions, definitely I'll tell as myself. So,

Speaker 2

14:15 just to clarify, if the Planning Commission forms a subcommittee, they need to form it with at least four people. Otherwise,

Speaker 4

14:24 it's gonna be very hard to get anything done. Right. Yes.

Speaker 1

14:28 Yeah.

Speaker 4

14:30 Yeah. And and I'll add to that. Not just the what what what's required for report, but also, like, the Planning Commission creates formally creates a committee that is in and of itself a public body and so all Right. They gotta take minutes, they gotta go.

Speaker 1

14:51 Yeah. Yeah. So along with the agenda, you do need to have minutes. It is obviously vary greatly by who's doing them, honestly. I mean, Charles does a great job. You know, they don't have to be verbatim. Some some places actually do a transcript, but they don't have to be verbatim, but they do need to be so that somebody, you know, ten years from now can go back and see, you know, who was there, who spoke, you know, what the motion was, what the issue was, how people voted, you know, just sort of at least a solid outline as to somebody who wasn't at the meeting to understand what happened or, you know, ten years from now, go back and see what happened.

15:45 So are you saying it's a good idea when somebody's taken that the the record of who said who voted yes or no would be equal? Yes. Yeah.

15:58 I mean, you know, there's sometimes you're just getting consensus. Mhmm. You know, if it's not if it's just sort of like, hey, do you want staff to look into, you know, x y z for the town. Is there a consensus? That, you know, that's a lot different. But if you're actually making a motion, you don't wanna you know, especially if it's an ordinance or a zoning issue, yeah, how many people voted?

16:29 So, again, anything social, if you're not talking about town business is fine. That also, like, candidate appearances or a public forum, you all may all find yourselves as you're campaigning one day at the same places. The court has held that that doesn't even though you may sort of all be in the same place talking about town business, they have recognized that it is a little bit different.

17:05 You asked about emails. Obviously, everybody uses email. The courts have said you can't use email because you need to have information and that is clearly the way you're going to get it. I I advise clients either, you know, Charles sends you an email or I send you an email, a lot of times just don't hit reply all, just reply to Charles. And so that way, you're really not creating news. He just needs to know, are you available for this emergency special meeting?

17:38 Reply to him. The other thing is, I do think it kind of creates a meeting when people are just rapid fire responding in real time, so you're really always having a conversation. But if, you know, you send an email in the morning, you know, somebody responds at 03:00 in the afternoon, somebody else responds at 9PM, I I don't think that we'll consider that a meeting. You know, I can't tell you a 100% every time, but that is the I that is the best advice that I think we can give at this point because obviously, does not work well.

18:12 So Specifically, emails is what I Yes. But not one on one, but group emails would be the problem. Right. So when you're doing that response, like reply all and having Right. It's usually when there's something pending that needs to be dealt with somewhat quickly, that people are rapid fire responding. Also, we have had clients who just put the attorney on there thinking things will be attorney flag privileges because you cc'd the attorney. That does not count.

18:45 Like, I'm happy to read your emails, but that's not you know? And like, then they go on and say, I'm the attorney on here so that, let me attorney flag privilege. That's not gonna help you. So so, yeah, I just advise people either reply just to the sender or

Speaker 4

19:06 Wait. Just to clarify, so you would say, like if it's if it's like an email group of people that are all members of one committee and, like, an item gets shared as information to that group. Maybe it's the agenda or whatever, you know, like, that's perfectly fine. If the email train spirals into people talking about something that's maybe leaning towards a decision outside, That's

Speaker 1

19:34 Right. It's not Yeah. A lot. Yeah. So there's, like, the fourth of July parade, it's, like, there's a flow catching on fire and a heart pain coming in and y'all are trying to figure out what to do or something. Clearly, it's an issue that has to be dealt with, but that's usually the situation where people are just rapid fire responding and there has to be this situation, maybe, like, cancel the whatever. Yeah.

20:02 Alright.

Speaker 4

20:03 Talking about electronic means, well, you talk a little bit about group participation?

Speaker 1

20:12 So after COVID, so during COVID, a lot of people never know free, and, it was kind of great for a little bit. And since then, the general assembly has sort of refined when people can meet remotely. So, you can, and 100% remote participation is allowed if there is a true state of emergency. So, the snow, for example, if you all had a Monday night meeting, you know, after that big snow, go to the state of emergency, Lancaster probably did as well, you all could have met remotely if you wanted to, technically, under under the law.

21:00 I don't generally recommend it these days because people don't like it. You know, in a situation like that, people probably didn't have Internet, you know, citizens couldn't, you know, my own that wasn't working. I should y'all might have better. You know, at this point, I don't think people are really recommending it unless it really something is happening in the wall. And that is during the whole council. Right. The whole council. Without an individual motion.

21:29 Right. So there is a provision for the entire council to meet remotely. What is used much more frequently, since Bradley is demonstrating it, which is awesome, is that one one person can meet remotely. There has to be a form physically assembled in the meeting spot. And there's also rules that the person who is removed has to, like be caring for somebody or a family member is sick. They have to give the reason and where they are located, and I do not know why that is.

22:06 I I really don't have to.

22:09 And it can be, like, redacted from the minutes or am I getting that wrong, Charles? It

Speaker 4

22:15 It's a notes. It's a of it. Yeah. So

Speaker 1

22:18 it can be I wanna say that it can be redacted from the minutes as long as it's recorded somewhere. I mean, I may have that backwards, but it it it's very invasive, I think. But if that is that is the the rule. You also think it's within a calendar year, you can only be removed 25 or 25% of the meetings.

22:47 Yes.

Speaker 3

22:48 Individuals. Yeah. Yeah. Did you say the individual has to have what requirements to be?

Speaker 1

22:54 It's generally that they have a health well, a health issue or they're I think there's provision if they're taking care of, like, a sick family member. Yeah.

Speaker 4

23:04 So those two are unlimited. If you had to you had to call remote multiple times because you had an extended help. Yeah. That's permissible as long as you need. Either that or you're caring for someone who has a family member who has. Yeah. The 25% role is specifically for using a So

Speaker 3

23:26 it's our participation among the needle? Yeah. As

Speaker 1

23:30 as long as I believe in your Yep. But the mayor has I assume miss Bradley called the mayor, emailed her earlier in the mayor so that I might have a statement to make for the meeting. Yeah. And miss Bradley will have to say where she is and

Speaker 3

23:44 So she could be on vacation. I guess. That way you can do 25%. Yes.

Speaker 4

23:50 You can use it for personal wisdom. If separately, you have a health issue, that's enough for the as long as you're experiencing it. Yeah.

Speaker 1

23:59 But that shouldn't become your name.

24:04 Yes. Although, I told Charles I had I had one person, He said he was visiting the king of England in London. I know in my heart he was not in London and he certainly was not visiting the king. But What are you saying? Yeah. Was not. Like, I couldn't ruin it. Yeah. Mean, Yeah. It is a I think it's a really I get that you don't want people, you know, not sending me or only sending me a note. But I just think it I don't I wish I understood why they need to know such personal information.

24:39 I don't I don't know.

24:43 So so, yeah, there's a provision for the entire council to meet remotely and then individual members as needed. And I just like to add sorry.

Speaker 4

24:52 I keep forgetting. But the other thing I do know is true, I believe, is that in the minutes, it has to record those three things. That's the reason they have to be said in the meetings so that Yes. Whether it's us, whether it's e d, somebody's calling from a your reason for why, where you are, those things have to be reported here. Think

Speaker 1

25:12 there's something that you can redact it as long as you have a copy that's unredacted.

Speaker 4

25:17 Okay. I don't have a way somewhere. Yes.

Speaker 1

25:19 Yes. It does have to be yeah. Somewhere.

25:24 So you can also have emergency meetings or special meetings. I mean, y'all don't do that too terribly often, but I think the last thing you maybe did was when you had to fill an interim position instead of special election. The way it timed out with the, you know, getting the things to the court, you all had a set of special. So that is allowed. You'd have to get three days notice or as much as possible. It's contemporaneous letting the council know, essentially.

26:07 The other big issue with meetings is closed meetings. You guys don't go to closed. That's fun. There's some. Mhmm. Some some boards and councils never go to closed. Some go in every single meeting. Just some of that just depends on what's happening in their community. So the first and the clarification. We don't have to go in closed session for anything. Is that correct? Well, maybe the employee didn't Yeah. But other than that, was there a front stage or whatever?

26:41 When I'm hired to go, that's just, like, for a reason we can't go. Right. Okay. Yeah. So if you're going into clothes, it has to fit into a a permissible exemption. It's personnel, you know, if you're trying to negotiate a contract or buy a piece of real estate, you're getting legal advice, you know, there's several exemptions. And it may be that, you know, you have an exemption to go in a closed negotiated contract, and that's totally fine. But then once you sign that contract, the contract is then going to be a public document, and anyone can come look at So some things can also change sort of as they matriculate through, you know, what's happening with counsel.

27:25 Let let me follow

Speaker 3

27:27 that up just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I am. Yeah. Closed session. And then the closed session, certain things are decided, and I think they should be both. Can I break them both?

Speaker 1

27:43 Is such a good question. So, and there's no good answer. So, and we, this is, people spend thousands of dollars on legal fees for this. So, the idea is that it's confidential. Right? You guys can let people in or, you know, you know, if you want Charles to be in there, for me to be in there, you you can let anybody in. But the idea is that it's confidential. And if I'm in there, I have rules of professional conduct that I have to keep it confidential.

28:17 You all just have basically a gentleman's agreement amongst yourselves that it is. And there's nothing that anyone can do really to, you know, some some councils have bylaws or code of ethics to try to address it, but at the end of the day, it's really, you all hold it and you all are the only people that can sort of give it away.

28:40 If you are getting legal advice and there is something that's attorney client privilege, the client is the counsel, not the individual. So then, if you go, if my brilliant legal strategy to oppose a counsel, you've now, you know, ruined that attorney client privilege for council. They had to unilaterally. Right. This is why some councils and boards will not go to close because they cannot agree and they do not trust one another. So they just say, we're not going because they don't trust one another.

29:14 Not there's been several cases where someone's, like, secretly reported them, like, the what's the closed sessions.

29:24 It it is unfortunately not uncommon occurrence. So it's really up to you all how you all deal with each other professionally to to keep it confidential. Yeah. Well, they didn't answer my question. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I understand that that it's all about. But if I if I really, you know, strongly agree something has happened in in a closed session, and and I think the public should know it,

Speaker 3

29:53 That what the council is doing.

29:58 Is there any law or anything that prevents you from doing that?

30:04 Without

Speaker 1

30:05 a specific situation, no. I mean, there may be something that you it's like if you all had an economic development and you all sign non disclosure and you broke that. Like, I don't wanna tell you that there's never a situation that you wouldn't face some sort of repercussions. But understand all that stuff. Yeah. But generally like, If

Speaker 3

30:23 we had this discussion in union oh, I'll give you an example. Let's say that we discussed an employee conversation, somebody's really discouraging that person. Now I think that person's excellent. Mhmm. And I wanna tell the public that he's excellent as opposed to letting somebody else blackball in in, you know, in a conversation. You know, that you know, that's just an example. Right. I don't know. I'm not gonna say ever happened. Oh, it's happened.

30:55 Well, I did. I'm sure.

Speaker 5

31:02 It's an obligation to defend that person. With all you need, you would have to defend someone in public if someone else told what was said in the blood section.

Speaker 3

31:13 No. I wouldn't I wouldn't wanna be the one just telling you what happened in the closed session. Well,

Speaker 1

31:20 so there's nothing so there's there's nothing I mean, there's nothing there's no first day law that says if you disclose what we discussed in closed, then you're, you know, gonna be fine or reprimanded or something. Alright? In

Speaker 3

31:35 closed session, somebody says we need to have more partners and low income housing in this town, and I really feel like we should. But that's done in closed session. Okay. Let let me tell you. I wanna blow that whistle. I wanna tell the company that this guy said this in class session. That is that the kind of person you want on his damn phone? You

Speaker 1

31:59 know? Can I do that? Well, we do have a gentleman's Yeah. I'm sure. That, but if I well, then know, I don't want to agree the whole day to a call.

32:16 But if we can't trust what we say is in a closed session, then we might as well not ever have any closed sessions. I'm a very. I mean What happens with that? I don't think we have that issue. If if if if

Speaker 3

32:29 I say no, I'm not agreeing with the first section, does that stop? It

Speaker 1

32:34 does not stop. It stops. So what does that do? It is an it is a good opportunity to have a good discussion before you go in, but assuming that the majority wants to go into closed, it can still happen. I've seen people not go into closed because they didn't vote for it and don't feel like what's going on there is legal or kosher or whatever, and they will not go in. You you can go in when you come out to certify. I've seen people not certify, that only lawfully discussed business was discussed.

33:11 You do then have to say why you aren't certified. You do have to make that clear. But as far as just something that's said that you feel like the only thing you need to know about, there's no law saying you can't do it. Obviously, employment things, contract things, can get money fast, but just like your apartment example, it probably means that your council members will not want to go on the closed. So there's no law prohibiting it, but it will it will all help make it difficult for you to even if there's something you do want for the town to have, it may be difficult for you to build, know, to get your four votes to get it passed.

Speaker 3

33:56 But, know, I'll take this one. If I know, in advance, then what we're gonna talk about in the closed session, Let's say, is Logan coming out of the new department. I know that's what's gonna be discussed in the session. Before we go into closed session, you know, I was like, I'm not gonna participate in arguments about Yeah.

Speaker 1

34:25 And people have had mean, councils have had discussions before they go in about, you know, is the motion specific enough? Can they stay on the topics that are listed? If you've ever, like, responsible, they just award you to spend, I may spend an hour before they go in to close because they couldn't agree on going in to close. So, yeah, you can absolutely say that. You just need to be careful that you're not saying something that's disparaging someone else, or if you're talking about a builder of these apartments, something that's going to get the town to do this session.

35:02 We don't

Speaker 5

35:07 know, but some of the details are from the closed session. All we gotta do is call shots. I mean, we're entitled to know that, and want to know that ahead of time. I know. Well, I'm just I know who I am, but it's the public. That that's part of what can I tell the problem? I know I'm entitled as the. There's no happening.

35:37 Think

Speaker 3

35:37 all of us have told that we're gonna be transferred and be transferred and transferred.

Speaker 1

35:42 And I think a lot of times, we're not.

35:48 I

Speaker 4

35:48 want this to be transparent. Related to what Wayne's talking about, ask the questions about the motions. I feel like that's the part where the transparency is available as often public. Mhmm. I struggle a bit out out of things here with, I think, writing the motions for counsel that meet all of the requirements the way they're supposed to. But part of the reason that I struggled to involve with that is because of this such a small town. Right. A small community that a lot of times, like, if you're going to close sessions, talk about personnel, whether it's Justin or community.

36:26 Yeah. If you're going into close sessions, talk about abiding a waterfront property, you know, there's one for sale in town and so the only way to not give away the topic of the session is to actually really state the subject. So, I guess my question is, you

Speaker 1

36:49 know,

Speaker 4

36:51 how do I best angle that or should I actually just go on and distinct subjects? It's

Speaker 1

36:58 really tricky. Like, even in places bigger than this, still, you know, they have one person in apartments a lot of times, so yeah, it's really tricky. I would say definitely anything with a contract. Legal advice, the case name is always public, you can put that out there. If you're trying to purchase real estate, I would on the side of let somebody challenge it a little bit. Say you're going in to talk about buying real estate, I don't think you have to say it's a waterfront, but you can just say purchase real estate.

37:34 I I really think you'd be fine. But even that might be the way.

Speaker 3

37:41 But that's also problem, you said she could. It could be. I mean, you

Speaker 1

37:47 know, but if you want to talk about how much you're going to pay for your waterfront land, I would not want that in public because then that's how much I'm going to charge you for your land. Yeah.

38:05 Does anybody have other questions about closed meetings or meetings?

38:11 Alright. So the other part of OIA is the public records, which are most I'm gonna say most of the documents that are produced by the town or in the town's possession.

38:27 You all have a duty to disclose the records, they need to be not sitting out on town hall lawn, but when people ask for them, you have to. There are a lot of exceptions to FOIA in terms of what you can withhold or redact. It's somewhat similar to the closed meetings, but personal records generally can give title and salary, and that's really it. You don't give performance reviews or evaluations or anything like that.

39:07 Public safety records, you know, anything having to do with DSS, schools have a long list of exemptions, so you know, a lot of this as as a small town, don't actually have. So

Speaker 2

39:27 It's it says citizens of the Commonwealth. Does that apply to Irvington if you live in Whitestone? Yeah.

Speaker 1

39:36 So to make one of the requirements to make a FOIA request in Virginia is that you be a Virginia citizen. So

Speaker 2

39:43 have another gun? Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1

39:46 Thank you. And some some places some places just fill it no matter what because it's the best time to run down their own favor. And a lot of times, if it's a recorder, they'll just get a Virginia recorder to do it for them. So but, technically, you do have to be citizen or Virginia.

40:05 FOIA requests do not have to be in writing. It's nice that they are, so just you know what they're they're asking for. But you all could run into somebody in town and say, hey, I'd love to see that Irvington budget. And technically, that is a point of request. And you would need to tell Charles, hey, I ran into Susie, she would like a copy of the budget, and we can it to her.

40:27 So just the the main takeaway is just be aware that it doesn't have to say, I am requesting via creative information. Like, it could be a casual conversation that they just want some records for whatever reason. There

Speaker 4

40:42 are some accidents.

Speaker 1

40:46 So What? To what can be Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm very basic text. Yes. There's a 130 of you. Yeah. So when someone requests from the town, you know, documents, basically, you can respond within five days. You can respond and redact certain portions depending on what it is. You can ask for more time, or you if you don't have the document, you do not have to create it. A lot of times people ask for information, but you don't necessarily have the documents.

41:25 So sometimes it's, you you need to go back to them and say, hey, we just don't have that document. You know, we've got all of this information, but what you're specifically asking for, we don't have. And sometimes they'll just be be able to tell you a little bit better about what they want. Can

Speaker 4

41:39 I ask you, so if a document exists, but the document has information on it that I am not allowed to use? Mhmm. So one of the common way of request that I get is information about SDRs. Mhmm. And I get it from companies that are creating

Speaker 1

41:56 apps for SDRs. Right? That, you know, they find someone in Virginia to request

Speaker 4

42:01 it. So if a document exists that has information that I have at least one thing, do I have any burden to still release the document that day or can I just not release that? Like, I wouldn't It

Speaker 1

42:18 it depends on what is I mean, what the document is about. I think you all should have I mean So

Speaker 4

42:26 we have, like, forms that people fill out with recent in their payment. Mhmm. For their That's being a sense. You know? And so the form of the vast number of information, one more number is really telling what they owe, which is all the stuff that's illegal for me to be released. But if the document has their name and has their email and that may be the very data that the SDR wants. Right. I would

Speaker 1

42:55 I would generally say redact, but let me check with, like, what other commissioner of revenues are doing and they went to look at wonder if there is a report for me to

Speaker 4

43:05 Yeah. Still release just the little pieces of form because Right. What I'm saying though is I wouldn't it's not like I would have to create another document in the email. I don't need to do that. It's not part. The document is already accessed though. I'm

Speaker 3

43:23 sorry because we wouldn't release

43:31 Some

Speaker 1

43:32 I've

Speaker 4

43:33 had doctor's taxes that day. But

Speaker 1

43:36 some information is I don't I don't deal with it a lot because it usually goes to the commissioner of revenue and counties and I don't I don't know what else to do with the finest, but I can double check. There are there is some information that has to be released or should be released, But obviously, things you can just look at.

43:58 Obviously anything with a social security number, but I don't know if you have that. Maybe

Speaker 4

44:04 the fact What I'm talking about is where they were working in their Yeah. And if if it shows any kind of financial picture of their business Right. That's not. So Yeah.

Speaker 1

44:14 That's what I'm oh, we did. Yeah. Have to send a few more questions. Okay. Yeah. Address, email address, you know, they like, they have a business license. Yeah. They have a zoning certificate, that stuff like that. We can all all should be released. We

Speaker 4

44:32 are currently redacting on our email addresses. One one is posted on the website. Just as it announced in the meeting that anyone interested can get that information. Yeah. I

Speaker 1

44:46 think that's I think that's fine. Yeah. But if somebody for you, thumb, like, an obligation, then it should be fun with that when you send it out. But also, you know, don't ask for information you don't need. That's another way to just, you know sometimes when people look at the forms, they're like, well, we don't need all of this. Let's just pare it down and then keep some of that personal information off of there. So you all can I assume you do charge for billing, employee requests?

45:34 They have to be reasonable. Usually, task gets assigned to the person in the organization who is making the least amount of money. Like, you don't want your CEO making copies and things like that. There's actually some bills pending about capping what you can charge. You can ask for a deposit before you start doing any work, especially if they still owe you from the last lawyer request. I think the I think most localities, if it's something easy that you can just attach to an email and send, I don't know that you charge for that.

46:10 I've never

Speaker 3

46:18 the

Speaker 4

46:20 one that I need to ask someone. So someone did a request where our it was something our treasurer was gonna have to do. The town has had multiple QuickBooks accounts over the years and the treasurer has multiple of them and this person wanted enough information back that he was gonna have to pull stuff out of different places and then aggregated the perception for him to create the thing they wanted. And so I gave him I asked him to give me his hour with a friend and I said, here's what they need to do for him.

46:55 And the person never responded, so I considered the same question again.

Speaker 1

47:00 Yeah. I mean, some people, you know, some localities are getting multiple, you know, multiple multiple requests, and it might take I mean, some of them literally take forty, fifty hours to sort of get the information. So, you know, that's that's staff time.

47:17 So I did include lawful willfully and knowingly violated FOIA and constitute of civil penalties associated with it.

47:31 One of the reasons we do these trainings is also just to make sure make sure that everyone understands at least enough to say, I know what FOIA is, and I know I need to ask Charles more questions. Of course. You know, that that's long as we're doing that. But also, you know, if somebody does stay in the town, somehow, it's something, you know, if we're doing periodic trainings, it does it's like, we we train. If that one council member went rogue and just spread all their files and, you know, if it isn't responding, you know, we we try.

48:04 That's the other thing. Can

Speaker 3

48:07 can you void an individual council?

Speaker 1

48:11 Yes. I mean, it still needs to go through the town, but, yes, you can say, I would like all of mister Nunnally's emails from December 1 through having to do with the town business, which also means if you have are getting emails on your personal, like your Gmail, you're still responsible for looking for those and responding. So that's why I tell people, just use your tab email. Or if somebody emails your Gmail or whatever, respond back and cc your town so that the town IT people can search it, and it's not incumbent on you to search your personal email.

48:47 And it doesn't matter what email they send it to or text message or no. You know, if you're putting things on Facebook, all of it. Just keep in mind, that's on gateway. Town can't search your personal stuff, but it's still gonna be subject to there. Please

Speaker 3

49:06 use your time now. But it's deleted.

Speaker 1

49:09 Still It's never deleted. Never finished. Yeah.

Speaker 3

49:13 Well, somebody else put up there. Well,

Speaker 1

49:16 we we have found them. Someone did a a counsel person did not give over their personal emails in a FOIA request, and then there was a lawsuit and discovery, which that's the bottom of the lawsuit. Discovery is broad. And so the person that they had been emailing with did respond to the to the discovery. Then we had it's like, oh, we just avoid a violation. So it does happen because it is never deleted. So Alright. So we're almost out of time, but let me just quickly conflict of interest acts.

50:00 You all cannot take bribes. If you did not know that, you should. Are you taking bribes? That's true.

50:14 More broadly, see, you know, you can't accept, you know, gifts over a certain amount. I'm hoping the popcorn was not a $100. Unless I'm wow. I'm getting in the. Yeah. Pardon me. Yes. You

Speaker 3

50:27 should go there and buy a fortune tell. Right. Yeah. But

Speaker 1

50:32 there's also transactions, contracts. You really have to have a financial interest in it. People a lot of times think conflict of interest is a bias. You prefer something, the town might get something that you like. That is not a conflict. The statute in Virginia is very, very narrow. It even defines immediate family member as your spouse or someone living in your house but as a dependent. So if you have adult children not living with you, they are not considered immediate family members.

51:06 So just know it is a very, very narrow statute. If you think you have a conflict, please, please, call me because we can do a little bit of research. I can write an opinion letter that can, can be used as evidence if you are ever tried for a conflict of interest, but even more importantly, you can go to a cop off to try and make an opinion, assuming you do not have a conflict, it's an absolutely barred prosecution. So it is, you know, it's like a get out of jail for your part, assuming you have told him all or heard all the facts.

51:40 So, just know if you have a conflict, they're very, very personal because each of you have different, you know, investments or business holdings, so it's going be different for others. So, just ask and they can talk it through.

Speaker 3

51:54 Yeah. Very good. Thank you.

Speaker 1

51:57 I'm happy. I've always had that as far as. Are we considered FOIA trained now? We're maybe get the training now.

Speaker 4

52:08 And so we would want to?

Speaker 1

52:12 Wait. That was fun.

52:19 Does anyone have any questions? Thankfully, we don't have to be this. Yeah.

Speaker 3

52:26 That's fair. Yeah. Don't get any bigger.