Regular Called Meeting

Speaker 1

0:00 Looking for I'd like to probably

Speaker 2

0:01 see I like to know

Speaker 3

0:02 if that's CIPD. It's I I read about it.

Speaker 4

0:05 They're on my last

Speaker 3

0:06 nerve. They

Speaker 4

0:07 get Okay.

Speaker 5

0:08 Recording's on very often.

Speaker 3

0:09 I'll tell you what.

Speaker 2

0:10 Recording's on? Yep. That one on?

Speaker 3

0:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2

0:13 Okay. I heard of Mike. I got another thirty seconds.

0:19 I'm looking for a lot of work and control that. Let's see. Let me turn your phone off. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna

Speaker 4

0:26 the fourth quarter.

Speaker 2

0:26 I don't wanna fix that stupid thing. I think I Where

Speaker 5

0:30 is that? I fixed it before.

Speaker 2

0:33 So it just gains time.

Speaker 1

0:34 He takes

Speaker 2

0:34 a lot time. My car clock is gaining. We're not even in the equation either.

Speaker 3

0:38 Well, that's good.

Speaker 2

0:38 Okay. I have to call order the, break and reschedule meeting, the Planning Commission meeting June 2.

0:47 No one gets to object to that. Okay, roll call. We got David. We have Ruth. We have turn. We have Marston. We have Vivian. We have Steve. And we have me. Okay we're all done. Any comments on the five six minutes that Vivian sent out?

1:12 Okay. All in favor of approving them?

Speaker 6

1:14 Aye. Aye.

Speaker 2

1:15 Great. You're done. Report from me. The July meeting. I'm going to be on vacation. And assuming there's nothing comes up that we have to vote on or really act on, would anyone feel bad if we just cancel that meeting?

Speaker 7

1:32 I will not be here either.

Speaker 2

1:35 Well, it's the reason enough to cancel.

Speaker 7

1:36 So I can't put anything in front of you

Speaker 2

1:39 to act

Speaker 4

1:39 on that weekend prior, I think the whole town will be a little Yeah.

Speaker 2

1:43 It's it's not at a good date either, is it? No. No. It's really Okay.

Speaker 4

1:47 So

Speaker 2

1:48 I'll consider canceling that meeting unless it becomes essential. I know everyone's going to feel bad about that obviously.

1:59 Public comment. Do we have any public comment?

2:06 Punch is gonna move really quickly. Pork from Justin.

Speaker 8

2:11 I don't have one.

Speaker 2

2:14 Nothing happened this week?

Speaker 8

2:18 You

Speaker 2

2:20 almost did didn't you? Okay old business this is the reason the only thing we had on the agenda. At our last meeting George Cooper made some statements about with regard to one of the CUPs we approved when we changed recommended changing zoning from M1 to R1 which eliminated some potential working waterfront. And also you know just how are we perfecting the character of the town. So I thought let's put an agenda. Vivian did a nice job. Has everyone read what Vivian wrote?

Speaker 8

2:55 No. Haven't.

Speaker 2

2:56 K. Here. I I got copies

Speaker 4

2:58 of it.

Speaker 1

2:58 I didn't send it out.

Speaker 2

2:59 Oh, you didn't send it out to them?

Speaker 1

3:00 I'm late. Sorry. It's in your email.

Speaker 2

3:01 Good thing I made copies. Yeah. So let's hand these out. There's a there's a number of them there. So I that's all I got. Got anything on that one. I'll just read a couple things from oh, I do wanna what I think the best way to do this is to just after we, I read a couple statements, just go around the table a little bit and talk about it. It is our job to to protect those things to the extent that we can. The vision statement for Irvington, I'll just read the whole thing.

3:32 Looking forward, Irvington will continue to weave together its natural historic assets, present charm, future growth for the benefit of town. Irvington began as a steamboat port on Carter's Creek in 1873 and is now a picturesque historic village known for its strong sense of community, breathtaking scenery, recreational water activities, active working waterfront. Resident and visitors stroll our main street, meet in delightful restaurants and shops, and gather at the commons, farmers markets, and concerts and take pride in our traditional fourth of July parade.

4:04 All in all this, they experience a peaceful, connected, and deeply satisfying way of life. On the order of the renowned tides in lends grace and serenity to Irvington where close by busy marinas, boatyards and a yacht club and water activities all kinds flourish on the creek. We are stewards of all this beauty and bounty and we envision Irvington growing and evolving in ways that enhance our community life. Our character are in our residential area.

4:28 We encourage open green space, limited density, compatible architecture, and maintain our cherished rural village character. Recognizing our attraction for retirement and resort living as well as the appeal to young families seeking a close knit community, we support local small businesses as they anticipate emerging town and visitor needs and the continuing success of the Tides Inn. Our water is our jewel and we will continue to protect Carter's Creek and the Chesapeake Bay watershed environment for future generations.

4:57 We also support redevelopment of a working waterfront and innovative efforts to expand public access to the water. Envisioning the future in these ways respects Irvington's natural setting, historic appearance, and small town character while encouraging its recognized entrepreneurial spirit and potential. It also continues the town's long tradition of actively shaping its own destiny since incorporation in 1955. Preserving our community through purposeful change assures all of us that Irvington will be as exceptional tomorrow as it is today.

5:27 That vision I think really covers most of what we're interested in preserving through our code. Remember the comprehensive plan is a guiding document. The way we actually do anything to assure it is in our code. One of the instances is we have an historic district in Irvington but if you look through our code the only thing in our code that deals with the historic district is basically that if someone has a housing issue that like we limit the height of buildings to 35 feet.

6:07 So if someone had a house that was historic and they wanted to add something to it or they had to fix something that was up that high we would have to allow. Would allow, Portozone Appeals with no exceptions to it. But other than that our national historic designation is really honorific. There are certain places when they put in specific code language that prevents people from doing certain things. We don't have that. So other than that, okay. I think Vivian did a pretty good job of reviewing this.

6:39 We have certain strategic statements about it. Maybe, Vivian, you could just go through this and then we could just go around the table and talk about, are we doing enough to talk about I guess two things. One is what is our village character? And I think the vision statement talks about it and density and walkability are the two key aspects to me. And do we need to do anything more than our code currently does to quote preserve our village character?

7:08 In terms of working waterfront have any comments you want on that? That's what

Speaker 6

7:13 I just also wanted to understand. What is in people's mind of what is a working waterfront? What does that mean?

Speaker 2

7:19 Well, let's just actually, let's start with the working waterfront part of it just before we go into Vivian's write up. What what does working waterfront mean to you, Marston?

Speaker 6

7:29 Well, I started thinking about, activation of the water in, like, a couple of different things. One is what are our goals here? And then the second is what are what are our current available options or locations? Because I feel like we're trying to the town has a place and the private market has a place for full activation of the waterfront. So are we trying to provide community access to accessibility to water? I mean, most Irvington residents, half of Irvington probably has that already.

Speaker 2

8:05 Yeah. On top of the Yakima, I think well,

Speaker 6

8:08 but I I'm trying to and then I'm trying to understand where precisely where we would potentially be talking about in Irvington.

Speaker 2

8:18 So Right now, I I my personal opinion, I would say, you know, the Custom Yachts is working waterfront. The Tides Inn is is a resort that's on the waterfront. I don't I think when it said working waterfront, it meant it it didn't mean I don't think I I think it meant marinas. It it was never like Slips. It meant yeah. It meant marinas, boats the question would be, is the yacht club working waterfront? Because it has slips, but it's a private club.

8:50 I would say it's not working in that sense so I wouldn't consider the yacht club working waterfront. I think right now

Speaker 6

8:57 So there's a public component too?

Speaker 2

8:58 Yeah. Right right now there's or business. Right now custom to me working waterfront in in Irvington is custom yachts and the Gadsden lot and water access. They also allow crab boats to come in there at certain times of year. So I'd say right now they're the only two working waterfronts left. The other one when we wrote this was Rappahannock yachts. And we knew that there was a potential sale coming and it was hoped that that could be maybe maintained as Rappahannock yachts in some form.

9:36 But the market just didn't really allow it. So that's it to me and I think the town did talk about working as the comprehensive plan does, talked about acquiring or getting a right of refusal on Gatz and so it didn't become a private motor access. And the town the Town Council decided not to go, they talked to them, they decided it wasn't the appropriate place. So that's really it. We've got, in my mind we've got two of them.

Speaker 1

10:03 I think maybe Crockett's Landing.

Speaker 2

10:06 Go ahead swing with three. Crockett's Landing is the other one. Sorry. Thank you. So we have three working waterfronts. Crockett's Landing which is slips.

Speaker 1

10:15 Have a marina store down there too.

Speaker 2

10:18 They do some repairs. At Crockett's Landing?

Speaker 8

10:21 Well, they used to.

Speaker 2

10:22 I don't Yeah. They used to, but the I think the, people that bought it, I don't I don't know where they continued that.

Speaker 1

10:26 Yeah. I haven't been down there actually since the new people bought it even though I, like, live right next to it. But I just heard, like, that over the weekend that she's opened up, like, a marina store Oh, there. And I haven't walked down

Speaker 2

10:39 Great.

Speaker 1

10:39 To double check it.

Speaker 4

10:40 I was gonna say when when we talk about working the waterfront, like, I feel like there is levels of, like, business working the waterfront of like, yes, you have marinas, but I would think some of that hope or intent would be more essentially public access with I know there was not the appetite to do full on like parks or anything like that, but a business that you don't have to have a boat in a slip to be on the property. Know, like be it a part of a walking path or which the Tides does at least have that, the walking path, which has its limitations.

11:16 But, you know, if there was, say, like the marina, if they had like a snack shop or something for a boat to come up, something where it makes it a working waterfront that is approachable versus private land business that technically is a business on the water.

Speaker 1

11:30 Okay. I didn't think about that. I was thinking like, you know, oystermen and

Speaker 4

11:35 I mean, because yeah. I mean, that I think that's another level too. Like which they are able to use Gaskins and things like that. But someone who randomly would come to our town wouldn't think they would be able to go near water.

Speaker 2

11:48 Right. The public access stuff, I mean Gaskins is it. Most people come to town wouldn't even know that actually. Right?

Speaker 6

11:56 Is Gaskins the one right off steamboat?

Speaker 2

11:58 Yeah. Well we did say in our comprehensive plan that the town should have good publicity on the public access areas which would be that the town's making clear to people to come to town that is available It's to available to them to use their ramp and things for $5 as a volunteer.

Speaker 8

12:18 Are we sort of fighting market forces here? Oh yeah. Forces. Mean ever since the big fire of

Speaker 2

12:26 Nineteen seventeen. '19 seventeen.

Speaker 8

12:29 So everything was a working waterfront. Now there now there is none.

Speaker 4

12:32 Yeah. But that's why I think the change is less, say, the the commercial water movement and more of, you know, some sort of attraction for dining, etcetera. Like, you look around the Chesapeake Bay area in general, and there's like little hubs where there is public water that is mixed use. Like, look at Marwar even that's actively doing things but also there's a reason for someone to walk in and not feel like they're trespassing.

Speaker 1

12:59 Yeah.

Speaker 2

13:00 The market forces are clearly what's changed everything.

Speaker 9

13:04 I mean

Speaker 2

13:04 there used to be the number I remember was 40 crab and oyster houses on Carter's Creek. Not all of them in Irvington, some of them are on the other side. But other than Kellum's I think they've all gone away because the market doesn't need them.

Speaker 8

13:20 They were swimming uphill on it.

Speaker 2

13:22 Well yeah and the town decided not to purchase additional property. Crockett's Landing was a possibility the town could have purchased. The town talked about buying part of Rappahannock Yachts before it was sold to someone else. And so, you know, the town decided not to spend money on that. There wasn't enough support for actually purchasing significant property. Gaskins Gaskins property was the only one that was really, I think, seriously considered.

13:51 And when they've talked about price and stuff, it didn't seem like a good idea. So, yeah, market forces have basically I mean, Rappahannock Yacht's property is still zoned M1. So Russ, the current owner could turn it into a yacht yard and I think the previous owner tried to actually sell the whole business. But all the equipment and a lot of the employees actually went to Yankee Point. The problem we have is that Irvington's waterfront property is worth too much as residential property.

Speaker 8

14:24 This market forces you.

Speaker 2

14:25 Yes. And so let's say for example, don't speculate too much on tape.

Speaker 4

14:31 But I mean, but to pick on that, like to interrupt, like to George's Point the other month, what what are we doing to not fight against the market, but say this is important to us and we want to incentivize or give someone a leg up who would wanna do something other than residential with a waterfront space.

Speaker 7

14:50 Our problem is our zoning, which cascades. So by the time you get to M 1, anything you can do in R 1, B 1, or B 2 is allowed in M

Speaker 8

15:02 1. Good.

Speaker 7

15:03 If we separated those things so that only M 1 could actively be in M 1, which would be a boatyard, then taking that property and turning it residential would be a process that you could not get approval

Speaker 3

15:18 for. You can certainly

Speaker 4

15:20 making it a hurdle.

Speaker 8

15:22 Yes.

Speaker 4

15:23 I I'm I'm not wanting to restrict anybody on any sort of land use. I'm not ever interested in that. But if we are saying something is important to us, you should have to jump through some hoops to get around that.

Speaker 2

15:34 The last time we talked about part of the Huntley Road. We recommended rezoning at R1 because it was in favor of reinstatement. And you basically said let's not do that. Well once someone builds an expensive home on that place it's never gone back.

15:56 Only way I could see us doing anything about that in my mind is if there were grants available to subsidize potential owners that wanted to make it working waterfront. And I don't know that there are any of those.

Speaker 8

16:11 How sacred is a working waterfront too?

Speaker 2

16:14 Well it's in our comprehensive plan, it's in our vision and when it was written in the vision it really addressing Rappahannock yachts because they were heading into a transition and we wanted to encourage that to occur. The fact is there weren't any buyers that wanted to use it my as

Speaker 4

16:32 distinct lack of sleep. As you were reading that I was like that sounds really nice and we don't follow through on any of that.

Speaker 2

16:39 Well we don't have the financial

Speaker 4

16:42 I'm not saying we're like willfully I'm just like every time it's been a situation where something gets brought up it just doesn't have the priority.

Speaker 2

16:51 We actually with the working waterfront we almost took it out of the vision but we left it in because we thought it was a nice thing to have for the town.

Speaker 6

16:59 Beyond just available land how operationally could it work? Because you have to have mean, it would be a it would be a money loser.

Speaker 8

17:10 Just promote access and utility access and

Speaker 5

17:13 It's just for the horse.

Speaker 3

17:15 And getting the permits and I don't know why we should be promoting that

Speaker 2

17:18 here anyway. For for an for an existing one, like, say say one of the remaining working waterfront activities. They were having trouble financially and wanted to try and sell it, the town could get together with them and help them apply for grants that might maintain it that way. That's about the only thing I can think of.

Speaker 1

17:42 Think you put the nail on the head there. It's really the Town Council and then working with residents in Irvington, you know, what do you really want? Do you want, some kind of land put aside or purchased or, you know, rezoned or something for

Speaker 4

17:59 Well, that's kind of the almost, like, come to Jesus meeting of, like, do you want it? Do you still want it if it's next door?

Speaker 2

18:05 Or do you

Speaker 4

18:06 want or do

Speaker 1

18:07 you want sidewalks? Think that's why. And

Speaker 3

18:10 in the surveys they said no. Exactly.

Speaker 2

18:12 Right. Yeah. So there wasn't enough support

Speaker 4

18:13 around Jason's. Mean, what I'm being on. Mean, we're we're saying two different things. But I

Speaker 1

18:17 I don't feel like it's up to me at all. If Town Council says, hey, help us put together this plan that we have for, you know, working waterfront for tourism reasons or just for residents reasons, you know, then we can say, okay. We can put that, you know, functional stuff in place for you. It's really up to the people here in town.

Speaker 2

18:38 Lancaster County when this was written had very little public access. And since this was written they've opened up the Windmill Point Waterfront which is a terrific beach. And the new one they have the Johns Neck Road to Carter's Cove one which that's under construction I guess at this point. They're going have a museum in the old crab house that's there. Mhmm. And then they have Taylor Creek which is the entire thing. So there's been a lot of additional very easily accessible public waterfront to Irvington since this was written.

19:12 Yeah. But it it was a difference between public waterfront and working waterfront. Ruth was addressing the public access too. That's a separate thing. Working waterfront is I I think a lot of people in town would hope that Custom Yachts stays in business. And I think they're doing pretty well since the other one closed. Assume that helped. I keep boats there. I don't think there's a lot we can do. One of the questions is would we want to change our vision and our goals and our comprehensive plan to remove it?

Speaker 8

19:48 What's going to happen when John Friday wants to retire?

Speaker 2

19:53 I assume like the guy that owned it before him he'll find someone that will take it over. But maybe not. That's what happened with Bruce.

Speaker 4

19:59 But but I think to his point that yeah, that's the pushback of like, if that were to happen again, that is there a record, like a recommendation to say, Town Council that, you know, these measures should be taken to help maintain it versus just wait for someone to be interested to buy it and then turn it into whatever

Speaker 2

20:16 they want.

Speaker 5

20:16 First of I wanna second Dave's point that public access and working waterfront are two different things. They're addressed separately in the plan. Yes. On the working waterfront, it doesn't have to be a positive action. We can encourage Town Council not to take any negative actions to hurt working waterfront. Bad ordinances, for example, that make John Friday uneconomic or something like that. So I think leaving it in there is still worthwhile just to address that issue.

Speaker 2

20:47 I agree.

Speaker 1

20:47 That makes sense.

Speaker 8

20:49 I like that approach better.

Speaker 2

20:51 The

Speaker 8

20:52 market is so strong, Residential market is so strong. I just I I

Speaker 2

20:57 you get a

Speaker 4

20:58 Strong, but it's not. Strong, but it's not.

Speaker 8

21:01 Yeah. Strong, but it's it's happened before. It will happen again, probably.

Speaker 2

21:06 You just said cyclical.

Speaker 6

21:09 Is there any m one what other m one locations

Speaker 8

21:12 are there?

Speaker 2

21:13 The only m one properties are I think the the yacht club's m one. The old Rappahannock yachts is still M 1. Crockett's Landed's m Crockett's Landing is M 1. And is Gaskins M 1? I think they are. Not certain.

Speaker 8

21:26 I don't think so.

Speaker 2

21:27 I don't think there might be b one. And then, they wouldn't be residential.

Speaker 8

21:30 Custom Yachts?

Speaker 2

21:31 And custom Yachts is custom Yachts is

Speaker 1

21:34 m dock across from the tides, you know, where they it's it's on, like, the Weems side of that

Speaker 3

21:40 Oh, the old the old

Speaker 2

21:42 The old golf course in in the lodge thing? I

Speaker 3

21:45 don't know.

Speaker 2

21:45 It's Lancaster County.

Speaker 1

21:46 That's not our it's not our That's been

Speaker 3

21:47 a county on

Speaker 2

21:48 It's not what? For us

Speaker 3

21:49 county on the side now?

Speaker 2

21:50 No. No. It's it's in Lancaster County. They're subject to Lancaster County's code. Right. Just like Weems is. There's no town of Weems in here. Okay.

Speaker 1

21:56 So it's not part of a rent tenant?

Speaker 2

21:58 Yes.

Speaker 8

21:58 But that's been for sale or for rent for a long time and no one's taken

Speaker 2

22:02 What's that?

Speaker 8

22:02 The crab house and all the stuff.

Speaker 3

22:04 The lodge. The Times Lodge.

Speaker 2

22:05 Oh, no. The the people that are

Speaker 6

22:11 in that is gonna

Speaker 2

22:12 they're gonna develop it. The only question is when they're gonna develop it. They have no they have no plans to sell it that I know of.

Speaker 6

22:17 No. They're going to redevelop it. Yeah. They have plans to

Speaker 2

22:19 sell question of when. Yeah. Yeah. It's like fixing the golf course.

Speaker 6

22:22 You know, the action that we could take is, like, Justin said, to make it harder if we want to maintain a waterfront thing make it harder to change m one to residential.

Speaker 2

22:35 And since the Town Council is the person is the group that approves that we we can recommend or not recommend changes to m one so that those abilities to influence are already in our power. Just like we we did recommend changing Reynolds Road from M1 to R1 because Justin recommended it and the neighbors recommended it.

Speaker 7

22:58 But I think to Ruth's point

Speaker 2

23:00 Ruth voted no on it.

Speaker 7

23:01 Right now because John Friday property has the ability to be turned into a single family house. You'd have to grandfather that.

Speaker 4

23:12 You You can't recommend anything.

Speaker 2

23:14 Yeah. You can't no. He can he can do that. Yeah. Correct.

Speaker 7

23:16 What I'm saying is

Speaker 4

23:17 That that's the suggestion to be like, well, no. You you need to, like, ask to do

Speaker 2

23:21 that. Change our code.

Speaker 4

23:22 You have it. Yeah.

Speaker 2

23:23 Change our code to red tech.

Speaker 8

23:25 But, yeah, but he's gonna

Speaker 2

23:26 be grandfather. So I mean,

Speaker 4

23:28 least it would be a at this point, yes, he it'd be grandfather, but some sort of symbolic look, we want to try to maintain this.

Speaker 2

23:35 Yeah. Sure. I think like I said, I think the only way we could do it if that case occurred, and I don't see it coming up very soon would be are there any grants from the state or federal government? There's got to be something. The town can certainly put together money and do that but I don't see that happening either. The town

Speaker 7

23:52 could eliminate property taxes for working waterfront?

Speaker 6

23:56 It's a good point.

Speaker 9

23:56 It could be.

Speaker 2

23:57 There you go.

Speaker 8

23:57 That's a

Speaker 2

23:58 positive thing we could do. Yeah. Our property tax is so tiny. Don't see the. It it would be a

Speaker 4

24:06 But it might be tiny.

Speaker 3

24:07 It might drive away. Ten years.

Speaker 2

24:09 Well, that's true. I mean, that's that's an excellent It's

Speaker 3

24:11 not a bad but

Speaker 2

24:12 it's symbolic. A It's symbolic. Symbolic. It's a

Speaker 4

24:16 twenty years from now.

Speaker 6

24:17 Beyond beyond that, can we find grant waterfront grants for these?

Speaker 2

24:22 There

Speaker 7

24:25 might be

Speaker 4

24:25 so many out there that do different things.

Speaker 2

24:28 The government does, well you can get money from the government for just being doing fraudulent things too.

Speaker 7

24:35 My short line is being learning center.

Speaker 1

24:37 You wanna open up a large There's tons

Speaker 4

24:40 of stuff

Speaker 2

24:40 I was thinking of an autism community. Autism transportation I understand is easy.

24:48 So limiting taxes, okay that's

Speaker 5

24:50 But we have to define working waterfront.

Speaker 2

24:53 Well, yeah, we can do that. I don't think that that

Speaker 4

24:54 would be You could the open it up to working in commercial waterfront. Yeah. That kind of like, loosen

Speaker 2

25:00 it up. Working meant people being paid basically. That's what meant

Speaker 4

25:03 for exchanged for something.

Speaker 8

25:06 But most likely it's gonna involve, boat traffic. If you're have a store or a service center

Speaker 2

25:14 Yeah.

Speaker 8

25:14 They can be approached by road. So what why is that gonna be more popular by road than it is less the outlaw cars or trucks or something?

Speaker 2

25:24 What do we what do we do we want a motion on recommending I think we ought to we ought look at what the property taxes are on our quote working order front and think about it for the next meeting, the meeting after that.

Speaker 6

25:36 There's one other thing I'm going to suggest. Any commercial business interest is probably going to require sewer. So you just have to think of that with locations where that could be.

Speaker 2

25:50 Maybe not. John has a large boatyard right now doesn't have sewer.

Speaker 6

25:57 Yeah. That's fair. But I mean, that boatyard is I mean

Speaker 4

26:02 They won't cover those.

Speaker 3

26:03 Sink your money in it without a sewer.

Speaker 6

26:05 Yeah. Know, that that took a lot of effort to figure out.

Speaker 8

26:10 It seems to be a restaurant or approachable by boat is a is one alternative.

Speaker 5

26:16 That's gonna

Speaker 8

26:17 require sewer.

Speaker 4

26:18 Yeah. Of

Speaker 8

26:18 course. A lot of it.

Speaker 6

26:19 So activating the waterfront, I mean, down there

Speaker 2

26:22 Yeah.

Speaker 5

26:22 Probably requires sewer.

Speaker 2

26:23 Tide doesn't have a sewer. Have a plan.

26:29 Still open to having a town center sewer line. We supported that. The cost is such that at this point Town Council doesn't support it particularly. We're hoping some development in the area lowers the cost for it that might allow the town to

Speaker 5

26:44 Things do little are moving towards

Speaker 4

26:47 a certain direction. Is it affordable now versus three years or five years?

Speaker 2

26:52 Yeah. Okay. Do do we does anyone wanna who wants to look at the I'll look at that. What what the taxes are on our commercial properties? Assuming they'll tell me. I can. You can do that.

Speaker 3

27:07 Right? Yeah.

Speaker 2

27:08 And okay. Justin will do that.

Speaker 5

27:10 Well, Gaskin Landing is kinda working because that's where the watermen go out of. And

Speaker 2

27:14 Yeah. You know, Gaskin Landing, consider working waterfront.

Speaker 5

27:17 Dredge operations.

Speaker 2

27:18 They rent places. That's there's a there's a business there of some Yeah. Mhmm. There's a business there of some kind. So it's Gaskins. And I'd I'd still consider

Speaker 5

27:27 I mean, let it

Speaker 2

27:28 I consider Crockett's Landing also commercial.

Speaker 8

27:30 Is that also the owner system or is the Gaskin family organizing Crockett's?

Speaker 6

27:36 Crockett's or gas? Crockett's. Yes.

Speaker 2

27:38 The the gaskins Gaskins is owners. As I understand it, there's actually The Gaskins person that actually owned it went to a number of people.

27:54 The transfer of that actually has in it that the watermen have access to. It was actually part of the deed or their grift. So that exists.

28:08 Well it's whatever document transferred it to the next group of the family. So I know whether they can make it in perpetuity. Think that was the intent.

28:21 Does anyone want to look at grants, potential grants for supporting working waterfront in Virginia?

Speaker 6

28:29 Yeah I do. Great. Grants supporting working waterfront

Speaker 2

28:34 in Virginia. I like that.

Speaker 4

28:36 Slash waterfront instances. Yeah.

Speaker 2

28:39 Everyone wants to worry

Speaker 5

28:40 about that.

Speaker 7

28:40 My reaction, Marston, is governments across all spectrum want to stop and inhibit working waterfront. They want your gas away from the edge. They want your gravel away from the edge.

Speaker 6

28:52 They don't want painting

Speaker 2

28:55 people there.

Speaker 4

28:56 I I think that's why you have to open up the terminology because they are wanting natural resources to be a shining light of areas. So yeah, no, they might not want industrial paint by the water, but they might encourage a boat up spot with limited slips.

Speaker 6

29:14 Well, want to encourage well, I was pretty integral in the Taylor Creek one, and they wanna encourage public access. Yeah. Great.

Speaker 2

29:22 It's always like Right.

Speaker 6

29:23 So if you go down the road of Grantsford, that maybe

Speaker 2

29:26 That's well, yeah, look into it. Great. Yeah. Great. Okay. Good. Now let's get back to the preserving the village character. Why don't we, why why don't, Vivian, you just start us off going through what you've done? You did a great job looking through this.

Speaker 1

29:39 No. Thanks. It's I can't take all the credit. It was a collaboration with Brock since I haven't read full, you know, fact about comprehensive plan. So we look at the rural village character with some key mechanism, the vision of residential guidance. So the plan calls for green space, limited dent density, and, compatible architecture to maintain the distinguished rural village character. So, it respects historic appearance and small town feel while allowing some organic growth go away, preserve and enrich the charm and attractiveness of the town.

30:29 So reviewing zoning and subdivision ordinances, protecting, historic resources. We think about, like, the bank building over there in our historic area and things like that. Recognition of the historic district, maybe we wanna have some extra recognition for for that. The land use properties to support lower densities in areas that are are already undeveloped. I think we've got two acres for one unit to preserve the rural atmosphere and, continued opposition of multifamily housing and emphasis on single family, compatible development aligned with this land use policy.

31:18 Livable community elements. So goal b promotes walkability, pedestrian, bicycle improvements, and traffic calming to maintain safety, in that human scale kind of environment. Traffic calming and living through trucks, retain that village feel. And, implementation, regular review of zoning ordinances, getting public engagement, you know, because people change and their thoughts about what they want change, and balancing growth, you know, with character.

31:56 That's always that line of what kind of growth and growth in what way. And I personally if I think I'm gonna make a mistake, I'd rather make a mistake on the side of what, residents want than, you know, me thinking what they should want. So so so overall, in terms of implementation, we're looking at success depending on zoning and subdivision ordinance updates as needed in collaboration with landowners, the county, and any state like and all for traffic calming, like the study that you headed up there, Marston.

32:42 Community events and stewardship at places like the commons, you know, continuing that sort of thing, and careful management of tourism and infrastructure, communications type things. You know? Do we bring fiber in here? Do we bring sewer in, to avoid eroding character? So it seems we've got a bunch of things in place already. It's, you know, recognizing what we have in place and how that's, you know, supporting what's being asked for in the comprehensive plan.

33:19 So lot lot of it we have. Clearly, maybe some extra things need to be done for the working waterfront aspect, you know, redefinition of working waterfront to be public access, as opposed to commercial, like fishery kind of things, maybe broadening that. And and, you know, and making sure since it does seem like maybe the comprehensive plan has some, some visionary things that there isn't a direct plan, you know, to hold those things and develop those things.

33:54 Maybe that's one of the areas we we help Town Council look at and say, hey. Have we touched back with the residents to see whether, you know, they want sewer as opposed to septic or they want and, you know, seems like, you know, we've got to grow as the residents want to grow, I think.

Speaker 4

34:17 Can I?

Speaker 2

34:18 Let's go around the table this time. Just start here talking about our village character and

Speaker 6

34:23 what

Speaker 2

34:23 do we currently do to preserve it? And even what is it?

Speaker 3

34:29 I I think we do a very good job of preserving it. Especially starting here. Mhmm. We've we've been doing that since I've been on the committee. I mean I think we do a great job at it. Really do think about it. Yeah I think there's some issues that we can deal with but they they seem to come one at a time. It's not like there's an overall need. We did that with the surveys and all the other comprehensive plan where you had you know, everybody said they wanted sewer but they didn't want to pay for it.

34:59 But you know, we put that in the plan but, so I think we we deal with it daily every once in a while occurring things very well. So I don't know. Ruth?

Speaker 4

35:12 Yeah, I mean, think to piggyback on some of that, having budgets to adhere to certain parts, I think we do a good job as issues come up trying to address it. There are things when I'm hearing about like all of our overall village aesthetic where I'm like, these things compete with each other. They're not totally in alignment. Picking on wanting to encourage single family homes, Two acres is pretty big. Like, so you're not you're encouraging a certain kind of single family home.

35:47 Is that the village aesthetic we're looking for of these properties that have gone up near the yacht club? That that's technically a single family home on like a two acre lot and they're huge. Is that what we want of the village aesthetic to be? You know, think on Marston was in my yard this weekend. My property is like 1.1 acres. It was a big yard.

Speaker 6

36:08 It's big.

Speaker 4

36:09 And I think about that thing of it would need to be double for something to be built on. We don't want over density, but you also want to encourage that mixed village vibe where maybe there are little, you know, two, three bedroom smaller homes that are maybe single level because people are coming here to retire and they don't want to take care of a big mansion of how you would encourage that to be affordable, not only for that end of the spectrum, but for younger families.

36:39 Well, to market demands of retail around here or not retail residential, two acres would be very expensive. So there there's just anomalies in there where I'm like, these are good sounding things that don't mesh in practicality quite as much.

Speaker 2

36:59 Jeremy?

Speaker 8

37:01 Good thoughts, Ruth.

37:05 You know, what is our what is Irvington's role in the community? I remember when I first came on the commission, it was sort of well, we're sort of a subdivision of Kilmarnock and it's a planned community and it sort of is a planned community but it's basically residential.

Speaker 2

37:26 For seasonal and full time residents and tourists, that's what it is.

Speaker 8

37:32 So it has some mix and I think it's done a good job of mixing that up. But if the Thais were to leave, that's going to be a major. We thought we were terrified of that ten years ago, which when we passed a property tax I guess.

37:54 That's when they put that in place.

Speaker 2

37:55 Because they're they're gonna they're gonna close it. We're gonna close it for a while to do development on it. They they put in a property tax to ensure there was some revenue because the occupancy tax would have gone down. That was why we put the property tax in initially. Right.

Speaker 8

38:09 So I just it's the vision that I'm not sure that I'm not able to focus in on the next vision. Excuse me. The vision is right now what it is today. And will there be one one application at a time that needs to have an extra floor add on or an extra room or an extra something like that. See that happening on a one by one basis. I don't see anything that we can as a Planning Commission can recommend anything that's gonna that's gonna be influential.

38:43 Yeah.

Speaker 2

38:43 Well, and the state's gonna require us to have, accessory dwelling units. Mhmm. That's a change that will be coming. That's right. Which

Speaker 3

38:54 will affect the

Speaker 6

38:55 So any so any any town that has ADU, laws are null and void when Virginia

Speaker 2

39:05 No. If if you have an ADU law, Alternative Dwelling Unit that doesn't conflict with the state's past requirements. You may have a town that had alternative dwelling units that were only good for relatives of the primary owners. State law says you can't do that. The state law just says you can have your ADU law as long as it doesn't conflict with the minimum requirements that we're stating. Return on Village Character and

Speaker 5

39:36 stuff.

Speaker 6

39:36 On the character I agree with David. We do a good job preserving it.

39:45 Market forces dictate a lot of this. Outside of saying that you can only have this prescribed use in M1 even though your grandfather to do this other stuff. I don't see how we can dictate how those properties are used.

Speaker 2

40:01 We do do our code and we say you can have in certain ones you can have a two family home. In other ones you can have a single family home. And then we say you have certain setbacks, you have certain height requirements. That's actually all we really do in that regard to maintain the character. You can't build a hotel in R1. Those are all residential prescriptions. Right. Also the maximum height of a building is 35 feet. That changes some of the things that someone might want to build.

40:32 Is really to me the only thing we do besides lot sizes that does the village character thing. The example I always give is that certain places have architectural standards. They have architectural view boards like in the historic district you could do that. Irvington can be a mess because most of the town is actually in a historic district. If you drive down King Carter Drive you will see small ranch homes and large Queen Anne places and other buildings.

41:07 I mean it covers the spectrum of development because the town developed in a very eclectic way. So the character of the town to me is very eclectic. I, you know, I think it's kind of probably not unusual for a rural village.

Speaker 1

41:20 Yeah. It it seems like it's developed, you know, according to the trend at the time when it was built. When we restored the farmhouse that was there, the farmhouse was in good enough shape where we just, you know, restored it. Right? And then when we built our own place across the street, you know, we looked down, you know, in the not so distant future and said, you know, I don't want stairs that go up like this. Right? And, you know, I wanna have, you know, living area on the 1st Floor, and I can have it.

41:56 I had to have an upstairs because the lot was a certain width I couldn't go too far. You know, the setbacks, I had to respect those. But we built a place that was good for two people to get old in. And having the setbacks and then, you know, the lot size kinda still keeps that open feel. You know, I can see the bishops, and I can see TV and the folks in Reynolds Landing, you know, sort of out there mostly unencumbered with things except my yard, keep my dogs in.

42:29 So I think and and then when you go down to where Betsy built her, and then we don't use this term anymore. The house the home is beautiful, but, you know, the McMansion and then the latest, if you wanna call it, McMansion, You you know, those seem to be what's in right now for people who have got, you know, those kind of bucks. Right? And, you know, I I hope that they're at least building it for the giant families that they have, and it's not gonna be like, you know, the next setting for Agatha Christie novel.

42:58 But, you know, but that, you know, that seems to be the thing that's in. You know? So those at least some of them have been built. But then you have, you know, the the house over on, Julie Harris' side, Will's old house. I forget whose it was before then, like, creative gal who's in Richmond now. And he cooked tinge. Yeah. That's, you know, Mike, the latest owner, has kept that, as it is and, although the big field there, you know, it's gotten subdivided so we'll see what happens.

43:34 Someone bought it. I know yeah.

Speaker 2

43:36 And they wanted to leave it as a field.

Speaker 1

43:38 Yeah. So at any rate it does seem to be growing as for good or for bad it seems to grow as you know, the the times.

Speaker 2

43:47 It grows organically within within our code. Right.

Speaker 1

43:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5

43:51 Steve? Just quickly, I agree with your point that the ordinance is primarily is the tool we use to control the character of the downed and also point out that downtown sewer Thank you, Ruth. I'm little tired. See you. Sewer, could open up some additional development, duplexes, for example, on King Gardner. So that could have a major effect on our character if it happens.

Speaker 3

44:23 I don't know. But their grandfather did not do that.

Speaker 2

44:26 They could do that anyway. They're harder to do. They could

Speaker 3

44:28 do it now.

Speaker 5

44:28 It's easier, but harder to do it elsewhere. Right.

Speaker 8

44:31 Is it do we talking about things what we would like to do to enhance it or to is there is there a reason that we have to make a change at all? What's wrong with what we have? Right.

Speaker 3

44:43 I think that's what everybody's saying.

Speaker 2

44:44 I think that's what we seem to be saying here. Mr. Cooper, you will bring you in the conversation. You were talking about the character of our town and we seem to be of the opinion that our zoning ordinances protect the character we have which is fairly eclectic. What would you say to Jeremy's question?

Speaker 9

45:06 First off, I'm impressed by this conversation and this discussion. The fact that you're giving yourselves good marks, I think is probably justified. But reading Vivian's summary of the mechanisms we have, very few of them are operationalized. They are statements of desire. Mhmm. But there are no mechanisms by which we can and and, you know, the the question becomes one of things that are coming down the pike at us as a community.

45:47 I think I'm not going to be it will be difficult to to use these mechanisms in that context in the way things are currently set up.

46:01 You guys are the are the brains of this community governance. David, you're a little worried about

Speaker 1

46:10 that. Right?

Speaker 3

46:11 I'm gonna say a whole lot.

Speaker 2

46:12 I'm just scared.

Speaker 9

46:12 I mean, you you have you have the luxury of this kind of discussion, and you act officially in the town recommending what should be happening. And that's that's your job. And I think it's a rightfully important job. And I I think that that were you to take what's summarized in these two pages and say, knowing what we know about the future next three to five years in this community and the the real estate demand that's going on, do we need to create some kind of mechanism that allows us to make more than recommendations to the the the Town Council and whatever.

Speaker 2

47:02 Could could you think of a specific example like a change in the code that we would protect or consider that would do a better job than we carry in Glad?

Speaker 9

47:12 Well, I I heard Justin suggest one, which was separating the the business code so it's not a hierarchical phenomenon and it keeps it separate. I think that would be very constructive.

Speaker 2

47:26 Changing them well. So so in so in an m one, you couldn't build a residence

Speaker 9

47:30 for that. Right.

Speaker 6

47:35 There's one other way to do it, would say, because I was on board with that as well, but you could create a working waterfront overlay district. You create an overlay that essentially says

Speaker 2

47:48 Cancel the other zoning, yeah. Right.

Speaker 8

47:52 And that would increase the opportunities, but the previous example, you're gonna be taking away the rights.

Speaker 2

47:58 Yeah. Taking away the rights of the current owner.

Speaker 8

48:00 And that's an an illegal taking.

Speaker 3

48:03 Yeah. I was hired by a company to the the government did the DC government put an overlay on it. It's called the 9th Street Cabin Avenue system. Mhmm. And, I sued them very successfully.

Speaker 2

48:14 If you if you

Speaker 8

48:16 were the one that did that.

Speaker 3

48:17 I was I was the first. All the other landowners did it too. Yeah. If

Speaker 2

48:21 you take away someone's existing rights, you will lose in court. Correct? Yeah. That's

Speaker 8

48:26 that's It's called inverse condemnation. Steep uphill climb. Yeah.

Speaker 1

48:29 Yep. So you have to be careful

Speaker 9

48:32 I about I think you grant only way you'd be able to legally make that change is by grandfathering existing owners. There's only way you

Speaker 2

48:40 can do that. Grandfathering what? Existing owners.

Speaker 3

48:43 Yep. If you sell it to another entity, then they can go under the overlay.

Speaker 2

48:48 You're still taking away

Speaker 6

48:49 the Well, is that an average taking still?

Speaker 2

48:51 That seems to still be

Speaker 6

48:52 their commercial value by Yeah.

Speaker 2

48:53 You're reducing value of the property.

Speaker 3

48:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2

48:56 So can But do that one?

Speaker 3

48:58 I don't know if you can do it, that's one way

Speaker 8

48:59 I they looked

Speaker 3

49:00 at it. I doubt it.

Speaker 2

49:01 But Yeah.

Speaker 9

49:02 I'm not sure if there's enough ten one left because

Speaker 7

49:05 it's maybe Sorry about it.

Speaker 9

49:06 The one Yeah. I'd be thinking more about the desire to change existing two acre zoning slots because that's where the pressure is going to be over the next couple of years.

Speaker 2

49:20 Ruth brought the two acre thing up. An interesting question is if someone was going to propose a development there that maybe made smaller than two acre lots for houses but included a lot of green space and the development made it very walkable that would fit within the character of the town. So with the right proposal that might be But that was the cluster zoning thought.

Speaker 8

49:40 We crossed that bridge a couple

Speaker 2

49:42 years ago. Well, yeah, the problem with that particular proposal was it allowed densities of like 20 times what the two acre lot did. It was so poorly constructed that it's hard to believe anyone was paid to do it.

Speaker 5

50:01 Can I

Speaker 2

50:01 think of any unkinder way to say that? No. It was so it was so stupid they lost. Okay. Let's see. What do we got? Is there any other any conversation about this? We only got two actions so far. But it's worth considering our zoning system because we are the ones that propose changes in the zoning code. Think about it some more. I have no problem with our current eclectic and historic development. If someone wanted to buy two one acre lots in an area and build right now they could buy two existing homes that were on smaller homes that were on one acre lots, combine the properties and build a much bigger home.

50:46 Our code allows that. I don't see any problem with it. The concept which was proposed a number of years ago by a Town Council member of some kind of architectural standards, they're absolute nightmares. Correct David? I mean you know you've got a bunch of people arbitrarily deciding what someone can build.

Speaker 3

51:03 You better get a war chest.

Speaker 9

51:03 You only work when I'm in charge.

Speaker 2

51:05 Right. So I don't think any of those things really make sense. The communities they make sense in are ones that were developed as a new community. And they basically created an HOA and they put in a bunch of restrictions. Okay. Thank you everyone. Good discussion. Any roundtable discussion? No. Next meeting is June 11 maybe. Town Council has their June 18 meeting and there'll be a budget discussion there but the actual June no. When is the Town Council's meeting?

51:38 That's to June 18.

Speaker 8

51:40 The eighteenth

Speaker 2

51:41 of the budget meeting. No. The Town Council's June 11. Right. And that the budget approval meeting is the eighteenth because they have to have the presentation at the eleventh meeting. And the second reading.

Speaker 5

51:51 Yeah. And so on the eleventh, Tom, is that a joint public hearing? No. No.

Speaker 2

51:55 We don't have anything to do with

Speaker 8

51:56 the budget. We have no

Speaker 2

51:57 role. Okay. We we put in capital recommendation. So we don't have to be there for that. Correct? Speaker Correct. Okay.

Speaker 1

52:03 Do you know where that list is of the projects that they had a priority list of projects they were thinking of over the next twelve months.

Speaker 7

52:13 I probably got that somewhere.

Speaker 2

52:14 He's got that. Yeah. They they came out of our capital budget recommendation.

Speaker 1

52:18 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2

52:19 There's some or some more detail like in the in the comments. We didn't have it heavily detailed, Justin will have anything ahead. Yeah.

Speaker 1

52:26 I'd like to double check I I will probably speak on the eleventh for some questions. Great.

Speaker 2

52:32 I'd like to thank everyone for participating and thinking about this.